Jarrett Fuller talks to the co-director of MICA’s M.F.A. graphic design program, Ellen Lupton. In addition to her work at MICA, Ellen is the Senior Curator of Contemporary Design at Cooper Hewitt, and a prolific author of notable design books like Thinking with Type, Type on Screen, and Graphic Design: The New Basics.

Scratching the Surface is a design podcast about the intersection of criticism and practice hosted by Jarrett Fuller. Each week, Jarrett interviews designers, writers, critics, educators and those that operate between these fields about how writing, criticism, and theory informs individual practice and the graphic design profession at large. Previous guests have included Michael Beirut, Jessica Helfand, Michael Rock, Steven Heller, and Alexandra Lange.